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	<title>Comments for politicalbetting.com</title>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Josias Jessop</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391441</link>
		<dc:creator>Josias Jessop</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391441</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t say it wouldn&#039;t be easy. :-)

I think my view comes down to this: we have a 17th-Century political system running a 21st-Century country. The debates we have over Lords Reform or voting system are just playing with the edges of the system. It is not quite like the engine of Kovalaienen&#039;s Caterham at FP1 this morning, but it is making sick noises.

Sadly it is not fit for purpose, and we are just rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.

What we need is a look at the entire system: where it works and where it does not. Look at the best practice from around the world and try to mould the best bits onto a system that works for us. Look at what fails in other systems as well, and learn the lessons.

There are so many large questions. Do we need an upper and a lower house? If so what are their rules and interfaces? How does local democracy fit in, and will it be expanded or reduced? Do constituents vote for a candidate or some form of party? Do we try and bring in a form of direct representation, with the public allowed to vote on specific measures? What is the role of the civil service; will it change or remain the same? How do we make parliament and politics better represent the public, and do we even want to? Can the public propose laws? Can we trust the public to directly vote on laws? What role do the media play?

I love pomp and ceremony, and there is no reason not to keep much of that as whether someone wears a wig or not effects democracy not one jot.  

The way to do this would be to decide on some basic rules that we want on our system. These could be things like:
*) No taxes without representation;
*) No benefits (of any kind) without voting;
*) One parliament to propose and debate laws;
*) A second parliament of experts to debate and amend;
*) Some laws to be passed only by direct representation (i.e. referenda).
*) Local government to be thoroughly overhauled and made to work
*) Budgets set by percentages of GDP rather than set figures; as GDP (or other) figure rises, so does spending in proportion.

Everyone will have their own list; the above is just indicative.

As someone mentioned above, this will not happen as there is too much power in the current system. Which is a shame, as the system, if not the MPs, is not working for the public.

As a conservative (with a small &#039;c&#039;), I generally believe that it is best to evolve rather than make wholesale changes. However, in this case I think we need large, wide-ranging alterations to the system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t say it wouldn&#8217;t be easy. <img src='http://www7.politicalbetting.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think my view comes down to this: we have a 17th-Century political system running a 21st-Century country. The debates we have over Lords Reform or voting system are just playing with the edges of the system. It is not quite like the engine of Kovalaienen&#8217;s Caterham at FP1 this morning, but it is making sick noises.</p>
<p>Sadly it is not fit for purpose, and we are just rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.</p>
<p>What we need is a look at the entire system: where it works and where it does not. Look at the best practice from around the world and try to mould the best bits onto a system that works for us. Look at what fails in other systems as well, and learn the lessons.</p>
<p>There are so many large questions. Do we need an upper and a lower house? If so what are their rules and interfaces? How does local democracy fit in, and will it be expanded or reduced? Do constituents vote for a candidate or some form of party? Do we try and bring in a form of direct representation, with the public allowed to vote on specific measures? What is the role of the civil service; will it change or remain the same? How do we make parliament and politics better represent the public, and do we even want to? Can the public propose laws? Can we trust the public to directly vote on laws? What role do the media play?</p>
<p>I love pomp and ceremony, and there is no reason not to keep much of that as whether someone wears a wig or not effects democracy not one jot.  </p>
<p>The way to do this would be to decide on some basic rules that we want on our system. These could be things like:<br />
*) No taxes without representation;<br />
*) No benefits (of any kind) without voting;<br />
*) One parliament to propose and debate laws;<br />
*) A second parliament of experts to debate and amend;<br />
*) Some laws to be passed only by direct representation (i.e. referenda).<br />
*) Local government to be thoroughly overhauled and made to work<br />
*) Budgets set by percentages of GDP rather than set figures; as GDP (or other) figure rises, so does spending in proportion.</p>
<p>Everyone will have their own list; the above is just indicative.</p>
<p>As someone mentioned above, this will not happen as there is too much power in the current system. Which is a shame, as the system, if not the MPs, is not working for the public.</p>
<p>As a conservative (with a small &#8216;c&#8217;), I generally believe that it is best to evolve rather than make wholesale changes. However, in this case I think we need large, wide-ranging alterations to the system.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by TC_PoliticalBetting</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391440</link>
		<dc:creator>TC_PoliticalBetting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391440</guid>
		<description>Best line on Ms Trimingham?

A part time lesbian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Best line on Ms Trimingham?</p>
<p>A part time lesbian.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by TC_PoliticalBetting</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391439</link>
		<dc:creator>TC_PoliticalBetting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391439</guid>
		<description> Mr Tyndall.  I used the link because of the great line about the Y shaped coffin as well as the Carry On antics of Farage that are something out of a 1960s theatrical farce.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Mr Tyndall.  I used the link because of the great line about the Y shaped coffin as well as the Carry On antics of Farage that are something out of a 1960s theatrical farce.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by richarddodd</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391438</link>
		<dc:creator>richarddodd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391438</guid>
		<description>Pleading is the word I think...I felt for them..tim as ones saviour....sheesh..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pleading is the word I think&#8230;I felt for them..tim as ones saviour&#8230;.sheesh..</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Steven Ronald</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391435</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Ronald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391435</guid>
		<description>Were people begging?  I like the way he slipped in his Hunt real bet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Were people begging?  I like the way he slipped in his Hunt real bet.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by TC_PoliticalBetting</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391437</link>
		<dc:creator>TC_PoliticalBetting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391437</guid>
		<description>Plato &quot; Motes and beams&quot;. 
It is very unfair to remind Kippers about Ashley Mote one of their infamous MEPs that were sent to jail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plato &#8221; Motes and beams&#8221;.<br />
It is very unfair to remind Kippers about Ashley Mote one of their infamous MEPs that were sent to jail.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Marquee Mark</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391436</link>
		<dc:creator>Marquee Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391436</guid>
		<description>And next time the UKIP voices bemoan what Cameron has failed to do, to protect us from the encroaching evils of the EU, perhaps they will acknowledge that their own useless MEP&#039;s could have stopped the European Financial Transaction Tax.   

If only they had bothered to turn up to the Committee meeting. It was passed by one vote.

http://juniusonukip.blogspot.co.uk/ </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And next time the UKIP voices bemoan what Cameron has failed to do, to protect us from the encroaching evils of the EU, perhaps they will acknowledge that their own useless MEP&#8217;s could have stopped the European Financial Transaction Tax.   </p>
<p>If only they had bothered to turn up to the Committee meeting. It was passed by one vote.</p>
<p><a href="http://juniusonukip.blogspot.co.uk/ " rel="nofollow">http://juniusonukip.blogspot.co.uk/ </a></p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Davidthecon</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391432</link>
		<dc:creator>Davidthecon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391432</guid>
		<description>Ok, so before I went away for a week Tim had just reappeared on here after his mysterious absence. I&#039;m just scanning through the last couple of threads, (which I assume are representative of the others recently), and all I can see is a torrent of total Tim bollox that is even more repetitive than ever before. 

Really, you people were begging for him to return, something to do with wise betting tips and unique insight? Are you all joking? What you get is a neverending crock of bitchy anti government bile that isn&#039;t even funny. 

Where is the wisdom? That unique insight? That hidden genius?

Meanwhile, on topic. Con/UKIP unholy alliance works for me. Bring it on!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, so before I went away for a week Tim had just reappeared on here after his mysterious absence. I&#8217;m just scanning through the last couple of threads, (which I assume are representative of the others recently), and all I can see is a torrent of total Tim bollox that is even more repetitive than ever before. </p>
<p>Really, you people were begging for him to return, something to do with wise betting tips and unique insight? Are you all joking? What you get is a neverending crock of bitchy anti government bile that isn&#8217;t even funny. </p>
<p>Where is the wisdom? That unique insight? That hidden genius?</p>
<p>Meanwhile, on topic. Con/UKIP unholy alliance works for me. Bring it on!</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by chris_g00</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391434</link>
		<dc:creator>chris_g00</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391434</guid>
		<description>It never rains...it pours

Andrew Neil‏@afneil
  
MP Chris Huhne’s partner Carina Trimingham loses her High Court privacy and harassment action against the Mail. Faces massive costs +£200K.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It never rains&#8230;it pours</p>
<p>Andrew Neil‏@afneil</p>
<p>MP Chris Huhne’s partner Carina Trimingham loses her High Court privacy and harassment action against the Mail. Faces massive costs +£200K.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by richarddodd</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391433</link>
		<dc:creator>richarddodd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391433</guid>
		<description>Dont worry..Labour are used to being in a mess..it is what the Coalition are trying to clean up after Labours last effort...It is the only thing that Labour is good at..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dont worry..Labour are used to being in a mess..it is what the Coalition are trying to clean up after Labours last effort&#8230;It is the only thing that Labour is good at..</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by HD2</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391431</link>
		<dc:creator>HD2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391431</guid>
		<description> I teach many pupils with so-called &#039;dyslexia&#039; and I have worked with a colleague who genuinely had it, as well as having a (left-handed, musical) niece who lies somewhere in the middle.

They are poles apart - it&#039;s like comparing &#039;flu with rabies.

&#039;Not good at spelling&#039;/lazy/a bit thick sums up 90% of the *one-third* of pupils who claim extra time for &#039;dyslexia&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> I teach many pupils with so-called &#8216;dyslexia&#8217; and I have worked with a colleague who genuinely had it, as well as having a (left-handed, musical) niece who lies somewhere in the middle.</p>
<p>They are poles apart &#8211; it&#8217;s like comparing &#8216;flu with rabies.</p>
<p>&#8216;Not good at spelling&#8217;/lazy/a bit thick sums up 90% of the *one-third* of pupils who claim extra time for &#8216;dyslexia&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Plato</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391430</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391430</guid>
		<description>&quot;but rather to abolish the ability of parties to enforce that support through the overt and sanctioned use of threats and bribes.&quot;

Not at all like UKIP&#039;s &#039;overt tactics to enforce support through the overt and sanctioned use of threats and bribes&#039; on the Tory party&#039;s policy then?

Sauce for the goose. Motes and beams. Take your pick... ;^)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;but rather to abolish the ability of parties to enforce that support through the overt and sanctioned use of threats and bribes.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not at all like UKIP&#8217;s &#8216;overt tactics to enforce support through the overt and sanctioned use of threats and bribes&#8217; on the Tory party&#8217;s policy then?</p>
<p>Sauce for the goose. Motes and beams. Take your pick&#8230; ;^)</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Nick Palmer</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391428</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391428</guid>
		<description> Your comments remind me of Enoch Powell&#039;s comment during the original EEC referendum - something like: &quot;People say that Europe has not behaved badly to us so far. One sometimes unfortunately hears of battered wives, but rarely of battered fiancees.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Your comments remind me of Enoch Powell&#8217;s comment during the original EEC referendum &#8211; something like: &#8220;People say that Europe has not behaved badly to us so far. One sometimes unfortunately hears of battered wives, but rarely of battered fiancees.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by HD2</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391429</link>
		<dc:creator>HD2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391429</guid>
		<description> I think we&#039;d better agree to disagree on this one, Corporeal!

I know what happened with Nathalie when we both taught at the same school and so were both affected, in different ways, by global decisions taken on high (such as going fully co-ed, for example or offering one of us a promotion or extra duties, which impacted on the other&#039;s life).

When we both agreed as to what this would mean for us both, all was well, but when one saw one side of the situation only (ie benefit for them, but disregarded the bad news for the other) then matrimonial conflicts and arguments were likely to follow. 

It&#039;s what destroyed us as a couple: &#039;external forces&#039;, both in the form of Cranleigh School and Nathalie&#039;s relationship with Anne (which was far, far deeper (Nathalie was, and is, emotionally totally dependent on Anne in so many, many ways: she&#039;s her puppet as well as her slave) as well as more intimate than I had realised or understood)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> I think we&#8217;d better agree to disagree on this one, Corporeal!</p>
<p>I know what happened with Nathalie when we both taught at the same school and so were both affected, in different ways, by global decisions taken on high (such as going fully co-ed, for example or offering one of us a promotion or extra duties, which impacted on the other&#8217;s life).</p>
<p>When we both agreed as to what this would mean for us both, all was well, but when one saw one side of the situation only (ie benefit for them, but disregarded the bad news for the other) then matrimonial conflicts and arguments were likely to follow. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s what destroyed us as a couple: &#8216;external forces&#8217;, both in the form of Cranleigh School and Nathalie&#8217;s relationship with Anne (which was far, far deeper (Nathalie was, and is, emotionally totally dependent on Anne in so many, many ways: she&#8217;s her puppet as well as her slave) as well as more intimate than I had realised or understood)</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by chris_g00</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391427</link>
		<dc:creator>chris_g00</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391427</guid>
		<description>No, no, it&#039;s prejudice.  An entire party composed of &#039;none politicians, they are schemers. Meet-in-the-pub types who plot the revolution that never comes&#039;

Dan Hannan or Bev_C from PB, actually not to personalise it, it&#039;s just that all women obsessed with shoes are *fill in the pejorative term*.  Your criticism of UKIP is no more legitimate than the Labour critique of Cameron for being a toff.  What next, LibDems wear sandals and Labour supporters all have cloth caps and whippets?

Moving on...  to answer the specific points. 

&lt;i&gt;then fail to look at a cold, hard strategy for achieving their objectives.&lt;/i&gt;

That cold, hard strategy may not be to your liking, but it&#039;s as I&#039;ve already described it, to hold a gun to the tory party&#039;s head.  If they don&#039;t offer x, then they could be losing the next GE.

The idea of infiltrating the tory party is an odd one, given everytime a proper tory eurosceptic speaks out they are accused of giving ammunition to their opponents and splitting the party.

As for the referendum, I make no claims one way or the other.  If the result is that the public want further integration, then so be it, if the public want out, then their views should be implemented.  What&#039;s so bad about that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, no, it&#8217;s prejudice.  An entire party composed of &#8216;none politicians, they are schemers. Meet-in-the-pub types who plot the revolution that never comes&#8217;</p>
<p>Dan Hannan or Bev_C from PB, actually not to personalise it, it&#8217;s just that all women obsessed with shoes are *fill in the pejorative term*.  Your criticism of UKIP is no more legitimate than the Labour critique of Cameron for being a toff.  What next, LibDems wear sandals and Labour supporters all have cloth caps and whippets?</p>
<p>Moving on&#8230;  to answer the specific points. </p>
<p><i>then fail to look at a cold, hard strategy for achieving their objectives.</i></p>
<p>That cold, hard strategy may not be to your liking, but it&#8217;s as I&#8217;ve already described it, to hold a gun to the tory party&#8217;s head.  If they don&#8217;t offer x, then they could be losing the next GE.</p>
<p>The idea of infiltrating the tory party is an odd one, given everytime a proper tory eurosceptic speaks out they are accused of giving ammunition to their opponents and splitting the party.</p>
<p>As for the referendum, I make no claims one way or the other.  If the result is that the public want further integration, then so be it, if the public want out, then their views should be implemented.  What&#8217;s so bad about that?</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by lapsis</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391426</link>
		<dc:creator>lapsis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391426</guid>
		<description>Recession worse than thought, eh.

So much for the Double Dip being a mere statistical anomaly that would be revised away as Tories complacently asserted.

At this rate Labour will be half hoping they don&#039;t win in 2015, given the scale of the mess these austerity obsessed Tory halfwits are creating.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recession worse than thought, eh.</p>
<p>So much for the Double Dip being a mere statistical anomaly that would be revised away as Tories complacently asserted.</p>
<p>At this rate Labour will be half hoping they don&#8217;t win in 2015, given the scale of the mess these austerity obsessed Tory halfwits are creating.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Richard Tyndall</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391423</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Tyndall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391423</guid>
		<description>The aim is not to abolish support for parties but rather to abolish the ability of parties to enforce that support through the overt and sanctioned use of threats and bribes. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The aim is not to abolish support for parties but rather to abolish the ability of parties to enforce that support through the overt and sanctioned use of threats and bribes. </p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Steven Ronald</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391425</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Ronald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391425</guid>
		<description>And there&#039;s MacBeth of course...

I certainly miss the team work aspect of a relationship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And there&#8217;s MacBeth of course&#8230;</p>
<p>I certainly miss the team work aspect of a relationship.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Jack W</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391424</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391424</guid>
		<description>&quot;That&#039;s MADNESS.&quot;

No this is MADNESS :

http://www.portobellorecollection.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Madness7.jpg</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;That&#8217;s MADNESS.&#8221;</p>
<p>No this is MADNESS :</p>
<p><a href="http://www.portobellorecollection.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Madness7.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.portobellorecollection.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Madness7.jpg</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Richard Nabavi</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391419</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Nabavi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391419</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;You (and he) have to show that he has made any real practical difference in terms of resisting EU integration.&lt;/i&gt;

Come off it, that is palpable nonsense.

Firstly, you seem unaware that Cameron heads a coalition with a very pro-EU party.  Surely even a UKIPper should be able to see that that limits his freedom of action.  

Secondly you said upthread that &quot;he gave up on the Lisbon referendum&quot;, completely ignoring the fact that the treaty had been ratified - a rather material fact, as even a UKIPper should be able to see.  Ignoring this reality simply makes you sound a bit mad.

Thirdly, this the passing into law of this Act seems to have totally passed you by:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/contents

Surely even a UKIPper should be able to see that this makes a real practical difference in terms of resisting EU integration.

Fourthly, he did pull the Conservatives out of the EPP group, because he didn&#039;t want to be part of a group committed to ever-closer union.  Surely even a UKIPper can recognise that this signals that he is resisting EU integration.

Fifthly, he vetoed a treaty change which would have led to an extensions of EU powers. Surely even a UKIPper should be able to see that this makes a real practical difference in terms of resisting EU integration.

Campaigning for leaving the EU and wanting Cameron to do more are fair enough. But why be both dishonest and viciously personal about the simple and introvertible facts of what Cameron has actually done?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>You (and he) have to show that he has made any real practical difference in terms of resisting EU integration.</i></p>
<p>Come off it, that is palpable nonsense.</p>
<p>Firstly, you seem unaware that Cameron heads a coalition with a very pro-EU party.  Surely even a UKIPper should be able to see that that limits his freedom of action.  </p>
<p>Secondly you said upthread that &#8220;he gave up on the Lisbon referendum&#8221;, completely ignoring the fact that the treaty had been ratified &#8211; a rather material fact, as even a UKIPper should be able to see.  Ignoring this reality simply makes you sound a bit mad.</p>
<p>Thirdly, this the passing into law of this Act seems to have totally passed you by:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/contents" rel="nofollow">http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/contents</a></p>
<p>Surely even a UKIPper should be able to see that this makes a real practical difference in terms of resisting EU integration.</p>
<p>Fourthly, he did pull the Conservatives out of the EPP group, because he didn&#8217;t want to be part of a group committed to ever-closer union.  Surely even a UKIPper can recognise that this signals that he is resisting EU integration.</p>
<p>Fifthly, he vetoed a treaty change which would have led to an extensions of EU powers. Surely even a UKIPper should be able to see that this makes a real practical difference in terms of resisting EU integration.</p>
<p>Campaigning for leaving the EU and wanting Cameron to do more are fair enough. But why be both dishonest and viciously personal about the simple and introvertible facts of what Cameron has actually done?</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Richard Tyndall</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391422</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Tyndall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391422</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t ask about Farage&#039;s wife as such, I merely pointed out the idiocy of claiming that Clegg is a Europhile because of his wife when Farage is a Eurosceptic and has a German wife. Beyond that I have no interest in politician&#039;s personal lives. 

Using a link to someone who has a visceral, blind hatred of Farage (even though he does have some fair points to make about the way UKIP is run) is hardly a great way to support any argument. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t ask about Farage&#8217;s wife as such, I merely pointed out the idiocy of claiming that Clegg is a Europhile because of his wife when Farage is a Eurosceptic and has a German wife. Beyond that I have no interest in politician&#8217;s personal lives. </p>
<p>Using a link to someone who has a visceral, blind hatred of Farage (even though he does have some fair points to make about the way UKIP is run) is hardly a great way to support any argument. </p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Nick Palmer</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391421</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391421</guid>
		<description> The Economist had a recent piece on why unemployment wasn&#039;t rising with the economy struggling - they did indeed tentatively suggest that the problem is that productivity is the issue. The switch to more part-time workers may have something to do with it - the evidence on what that does to productivity is mixed. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> The Economist had a recent piece on why unemployment wasn&#8217;t rising with the economy struggling &#8211; they did indeed tentatively suggest that the problem is that productivity is the issue. The switch to more part-time workers may have something to do with it &#8211; the evidence on what that does to productivity is mixed.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Plato</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391420</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:27:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391420</guid>
		<description>Thanks - the EP reminds me of the Euro argument back in the 90s.

Enormous amounts of newsprint expended, yet little actual understanding of it/explanation of how it works/what it does.

The media is shockingly bad at doing the basics on some very important issues. It&#039;s frequently fact free opinion and prejudice dressed up as expert analysis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks &#8211; the EP reminds me of the Euro argument back in the 90s.</p>
<p>Enormous amounts of newsprint expended, yet little actual understanding of it/explanation of how it works/what it does.</p>
<p>The media is shockingly bad at doing the basics on some very important issues. It&#8217;s frequently fact free opinion and prejudice dressed up as expert analysis.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by corporeal</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391418</link>
		<dc:creator>corporeal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391418</guid>
		<description>Yes, but a married teacher doesn&#039;t get the curriculum set by their partner.

Problems at work is one thing, policy setting and political strategy is a bit of another, particularly when you&#039;re engaged in the delicate job of balancing a coalition to keep your political career alive. &#039;The power behind the throne&#039; is wild exaggeration to say the least.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but a married teacher doesn&#8217;t get the curriculum set by their partner.</p>
<p>Problems at work is one thing, policy setting and political strategy is a bit of another, particularly when you&#8217;re engaged in the delicate job of balancing a coalition to keep your political career alive. &#8216;The power behind the throne&#8217; is wild exaggeration to say the least.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Frederick James</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391417</link>
		<dc:creator>Frederick James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:24:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391417</guid>
		<description>&quot;None was&quot; is correct.  Best to get it right when you presume to correct someone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;None was&#8221; is correct.  Best to get it right when you presume to correct someone.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Plato</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391415</link>
		<dc:creator>Plato</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391415</guid>
		<description>Done and I&#039;ve asked for Ms Cavendish to reply so her point is clarified/corrected accordingly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Done and I&#8217;ve asked for Ms Cavendish to reply so her point is clarified/corrected accordingly.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by RepublicanToryagain</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391416</link>
		<dc:creator>RepublicanToryagain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391416</guid>
		<description>&#039;Dyslexia&#039; is as much a middle-class excuse to gain additional exam time, as it is a serious problem.
HD2

That is utter cobblers.

I agree that many middle class parents find any excuse to explain away the fact that in reality little Johnny or Jane is thick.

But Dyslexia is a known problem and when tackled by people who know what they are doing often (granted not always) leads to very big improvements in the pupil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;Dyslexia&#8217; is as much a middle-class excuse to gain additional exam time, as it is a serious problem.<br />
HD2</p>
<p>That is utter cobblers.</p>
<p>I agree that many middle class parents find any excuse to explain away the fact that in reality little Johnny or Jane is thick.</p>
<p>But Dyslexia is a known problem and when tackled by people who know what they are doing often (granted not always) leads to very big improvements in the pupil.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Nick Palmer</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391413</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391413</guid>
		<description> Arguably, MEPs have more influence than MPs, because:

(1) There is never an overall majority for any one party
(2) Party discipline is looser
(3) Most legislation is now at EU level, though not the most important legislation
(4) No legislation can pass unless the EP agrees and
(5) It is easier for backbench MEPs to force a debate than in Westminster.

They have a huge problem in getting any of this across, since with half a million voters each they can&#039;t meet many of their voters directly, and the media can&#039;t be arsed to report them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Arguably, MEPs have more influence than MPs, because:</p>
<p>(1) There is never an overall majority for any one party<br />
(2) Party discipline is looser<br />
(3) Most legislation is now at EU level, though not the most important legislation<br />
(4) No legislation can pass unless the EP agrees and<br />
(5) It is easier for backbench MEPs to force a debate than in Westminster.</p>
<p>They have a huge problem in getting any of this across, since with half a million voters each they can&#8217;t meet many of their voters directly, and the media can&#8217;t be arsed to report them.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by Jack W</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391414</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391414</guid>
		<description>David Letterman last night :

&quot;Mitt Romney is Al Gore without the personality&quot;.

Ouch !!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Letterman last night :</p>
<p>&#8220;Mitt Romney is Al Gore without the personality&#8221;.</p>
<p>Ouch !!</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by HD2</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391412</link>
		<dc:creator>HD2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391412</guid>
		<description>Beware women (as wives) who are deeply ambitious: they&#039;ll either push and push their husbands into aiming for higher office and greater wealth (for her to spend!) or turn moaning and bitching into an art form, based on her husband&#039;s perceived &#039;failures&#039;.

Shakespeare&#039;s Caesar warns of surrounding yourself with thin, ambitious men, and that&#039;s even more true of wives. 

To return home to a wife who is proud of you is absolute bliss: to return to one who despises you, is hell on Earth.

And I have the T-shirt (and scars) to prove it!

The trouble is that fiancées are aware of their beloved&#039;s shortcomings well before they marry, but then seek to change their husband afterwards: often that fails and they then blame the husband, rather than themselves, for seeking to change their man in the first place.

You marry someone, you marry them, warts and all, not seek to inflict plastic surgery on them straight after the honeymoon!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beware women (as wives) who are deeply ambitious: they&#8217;ll either push and push their husbands into aiming for higher office and greater wealth (for her to spend!) or turn moaning and bitching into an art form, based on her husband&#8217;s perceived &#8216;failures&#8217;.</p>
<p>Shakespeare&#8217;s Caesar warns of surrounding yourself with thin, ambitious men, and that&#8217;s even more true of wives. </p>
<p>To return home to a wife who is proud of you is absolute bliss: to return to one who despises you, is hell on Earth.</p>
<p>And I have the T-shirt (and scars) to prove it!</p>
<p>The trouble is that fiancées are aware of their beloved&#8217;s shortcomings well before they marry, but then seek to change their husband afterwards: often that fails and they then blame the husband, rather than themselves, for seeking to change their man in the first place.</p>
<p>You marry someone, you marry them, warts and all, not seek to inflict plastic surgery on them straight after the honeymoon!</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by astateofdenmark</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391411</link>
		<dc:creator>astateofdenmark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391411</guid>
		<description> If you removed construction and oil/gas, then the rest of the economy would track employment fairly well.

The oil/gas contraction is very real, but the sector has a much bigger share of GDP than it does employment. Construction is a biggish employer, but the construction output figures have virtually no relationship with construction employment data since the output methodology was changed in Q1 2010.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> If you removed construction and oil/gas, then the rest of the economy would track employment fairly well.</p>
<p>The oil/gas contraction is very real, but the sector has a much bigger share of GDP than it does employment. Construction is a biggish employer, but the construction output figures have virtually no relationship with construction employment data since the output methodology was changed in Q1 2010.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by peterbuss</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391409</link>
		<dc:creator>peterbuss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391409</guid>
		<description>I agree with every word you have said Beverley. What i would add is that for years now the EU has been an open wound in the Party - akin to Labour and unilateral nuclear disarmament. There are good democratic reasons for a refreendum but it would have thios great advantage for the Tory party in that it would settle the issue once and for all in terms of our membership of the EU.It would not of course settle the many problems we would have to face in our rels with Europe whatever the result.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with every word you have said Beverley. What i would add is that for years now the EU has been an open wound in the Party &#8211; akin to Labour and unilateral nuclear disarmament. There are good democratic reasons for a refreendum but it would have thios great advantage for the Tory party in that it would settle the issue once and for all in terms of our membership of the EU.It would not of course settle the many problems we would have to face in our rels with Europe whatever the result. </p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by RepublicanToryagain</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391410</link>
		<dc:creator>RepublicanToryagain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391410</guid>
		<description>Polruan:-
&quot;Think of e.g. the Kent grammar schools that still own large amounts of land and in some cases income streams, have top end sports facilities etc. while the schools that were grown as secondary moderns have decaying buildings, little sports space, etc. etc. &quot;
Re Kent Grammar schools 

That is simply not the case that grammar schools have better facilities-in fact quite the opposite. Most have had less funds-especially capital funds- than non-grammars for many years. 

ALL the big school building programs around me (East Kent) have been focused on the non-grammar schools. 

I do think your point about talented maths students not getting to a grammar school because of their language failings is an important point and is one of a number of failures in the selection process for the grammar school system.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Polruan:-<br />
&#8220;Think of e.g. the Kent grammar schools that still own large amounts of land and in some cases income streams, have top end sports facilities etc. while the schools that were grown as secondary moderns have decaying buildings, little sports space, etc. etc. &#8221;<br />
Re Kent Grammar schools </p>
<p>That is simply not the case that grammar schools have better facilities-in fact quite the opposite. Most have had less funds-especially capital funds- than non-grammars for many years. </p>
<p>ALL the big school building programs around me (East Kent) have been focused on the non-grammar schools. </p>
<p>I do think your point about talented maths students not getting to a grammar school because of their language failings is an important point and is one of a number of failures in the selection process for the grammar school system.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by corporeal</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391406</link>
		<dc:creator>corporeal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391406</guid>
		<description>None was? And you with a PhD?

(The change in the law was mainly for the benefit of Labour and co-ooperative joint candidates, of which there are 20 odd MPs. As I understand it previously there was a bit of an anomaly where if you were endorsed by one party you could have an emblem, but if you were endorsed by two you couldn&#039;t have any).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>None was? And you with a PhD?</p>
<p>(The change in the law was mainly for the benefit of Labour and co-ooperative joint candidates, of which there are 20 odd MPs. As I understand it previously there was a bit of an anomaly where if you were endorsed by one party you could have an emblem, but if you were endorsed by two you couldn&#8217;t have any).</p>
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		<title>Comment on What happens if Tory MPs and associations start approaching UKIP ? by TC_PoliticalBetting</title>
		<link>http://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/05/24/what-happens-if-tory-mps-and-associations-start-approaching-ukip/comment-page-1/#comment-2391407</link>
		<dc:creator>TC_PoliticalBetting</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2012 09:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www7.politicalbetting.com/?p=48611#comment-2391407</guid>
		<description> Mr Tyndall, regarding Mr Farage&#039;s marriage as you ask the question this article clearly is of interest to you. 

http://juniusonukip.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/ukip-nigel-kirsten-annabelle-fuller.html

The tale of the Y shaped coffin lady.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> Mr Tyndall, regarding Mr Farage&#8217;s marriage as you ask the question this article clearly is of interest to you. </p>
<p><a href="http://juniusonukip.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/ukip-nigel-kirsten-annabelle-fuller.html" rel="nofollow">http://juniusonukip.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/ukip-nigel-kirsten-annabelle-fuller.html</a></p>
<p>The tale of the Y shaped coffin lady.</p>
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